Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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which is the exact reason why it should happen last, if at all. the most controversial suspect tests should happen in the most balanced version of a meta to make sure there aren't people coasting to their reqs with broken teams and zero understanding of the meta. the lack of balance during suspect tests likely affected the outcome of both the tera suspect and the kingambit suspect
I never thought I'd say this, but maybe we need to ban dengo. The hazards (specifically Spikes) game is off the charts this gen. And I do believe we need a Knock absorber. Funny how Gholdengo used the be team glue, but now it's a hazard warper like never seen before.

Although TECHNICALLY Neutralizing Gas Weezing and its Galarian form can Defog on dengo, as can Hawlucha. But that's it. Unless you got Scrappy Rapid Spin (or the examples above), you can't get rid of hazards with Gholdengo on the field. But imo, Gholdengo had so much ban potency back when it was released. I'm on the edge for what to do here. We could ban Gliscor, Gholdengo, or both of them. But does that fix the hazard meta?
Normal Weezing does not get Defog.

Honestly I wonder what true effect a Gholdengo effect will have. Defog Corviknight sounds actually really good in this metagame if it would not exist.
 
fuck it, let's just mod in defog's old distribution and be done with this discussion. if game freak isn't going to make the right decisions, it's up to us
I don't think that this is a good idea.

If you are going to force changes on the distribution of one move, then you are just going to start a slippery slop where people will start asking for one change after the other and you will eventually turn OU to a diet version of the national dex.

I hope people wouldn't go as far as asking balance changes to any moves, that slippery slop would never end.
 
Teal is broken, and noone realises it. I think it has to good sets, encore swords dance, and choice band.
The encore set punishes set up, and can easily sweep at +2 after the speed boost, and sometimes even without the +2.
But I think band puts it over the edge. Gets 1.5 from band and the speed boost and the tera boost. To put that in perspevtive. Thats the same boost as heartflame, but also witj a speed boost. It also hits harder than gdarm, whilst also being faster
 
Teal is broken, and noone realises it. I think it has to good sets, encore swords dance, and choice band.
The encore set punishes set up, and can easily sweep at +2 after the speed boost, and sometimes even without the +2.
But I think band puts it over the edge. Gets 1.5 from band and the speed boost and the tera boost. To put that in perspevtive. Thats the same boost as heartflame, but also witj a speed boost. It also hits harder than gdarm, whilst also being faster
Grass is way worse offensive typing than Ice though, there are like 10 or more x4 resists in OU. Sure, U-Turn, Knock, Play Rough and Superpower are good coverage, but something like Amoonguss or Moltres will stop Teal 99% of the time. I can't see this Mon broken at all, and in fact see it as good presence due to giving problems to offensive teams while struggling vs bulky cores, it's similar to Zamazenta (but way frailer) in that regard.
 
Teal is broken, and noone realises it. I think it has to good sets, encore swords dance, and choice band.
The encore set punishes set up, and can easily sweep at +2 after the speed boost, and sometimes even without the +2.
But I think band puts it over the edge. Gets 1.5 from band and the speed boost and the tera boost. To put that in perspevtive. Thats the same boost as heartflame, but also witj a speed boost. It also hits harder than gdarm, whilst also being faster
Teal is basically G-Darm, except flip Scarf Gorilla Tactics with Band TeraSpeed. This thing will get banned naturally because that thing was banned by exploiting the same situation. Tealpon is lil better because speed boost is lost upon switchout, but eventually enough people will complain and maintain the order of no double-choice-cheese.
 
Grass is way worse offensive typing than Ice though, there are like 10 or more x4 resists in OU. Sure, U-Turn, Knock, Play Rough and Superpower are good coverage, but something like Amoonguss or Moltres will stop Teal 99% of the time. I can't see this Mon broken at all, and in fact see it as good presence due to giving problems to offensive teams while struggling vs bulky cores, it's similar to Zamazenta (but way frailer) in that regard.
It's not bad at all actually. There are alot of grounds and waters in the game, and even resists don't take a 100 bp move of 120 attack with x3 boost
 
Teal is broken, and noone realises it. I think it has to good sets, encore swords dance, and choice band.
The encore set punishes set up, and can easily sweep at +2 after the speed boost, and sometimes even without the +2.
But I think band puts it over the edge. Gets 1.5 from band and the speed boost and the tera boost. To put that in perspevtive. Thats the same boost as heartflame, but also witj a speed boost. It also hits harder than gdarm, whilst also being faster
all the maskpons get an additional 1.2x boost on everything, so no, it isn't the same boost as firepon, and you're also locked into a move, which firepon wasn't. plus, you've only got one stab and it ain't that great, you can't drop your grass-related weaknesses, and a lot of the time you don't actually want to burn your tera on this one, which is a concept that works a lot better on any other ogerpon form
It's not bad at all actually. There are alot of grounds and waters in the game, and even resists don't take a 100 bp move of 120 attack with x3 boost
and where exactly are you getting x3 from?
 
all the maskpons get an additional 1.2x boost on everything, so no, it isn't the same boost as firepon, and you're also locked into a move, which firepon wasn't. plus, you've only got one stab and it ain't that great, you can't drop your grass-related weaknesses, and a lot of the time you don't actually want to burn your tera on this one, which is a concept that works a lot better on any other ogerpon form

and where exactly are you getting x3 from?
X2 from tera x1.5 from band makes 3x
 
X2 from tera x1.5 from band makes 3x
ok, just wanted to make sure you weren't factoring in regular stab on top of the tera boost. i've seen some people argue about stab tera as though it doubles the power after the normal stab boost, which is obviously not true

…but there are still resists that can handily tank that. amoonguss, corviknight, dragonite, moltres and heatran (though the relevance of heatran is dwindling) can switch into grass-type ivy cudgel all day long and immediately force a switch by merit of being untouchable because you can't switch moves; you need to predict properly to take them out, and predicting wrong can be devastating because you're locking yourself into a far less powerful move

and of course there's also the fact that by using grasspon you prevent yourself from using one of the best and most splashable mons in the tier
I don't think that this is a good idea.

If you are going to force changes on the distribution of one move, then you are just going to start a slippery slop where people will start asking for one change after the other and you will eventually turn OU to a diet version of the national dex.

I hope people wouldn't go as far as asking balance changes to any moves, that slippery slop would never end.
and once again, people continue to use the slippery-slope fallacy (and take my not-entirely-serious proposal in earnest). or the "slippery-slop" fallacy in this case. presumably we're going to be holding future ou tournaments in a pigsty. it frustrates me to no end that this argument is so commonly used despite having nothing to actually back it up
 
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No, Tera does that. Offensive set-up mons are surviving hits and statuses that they have no business setting up on. Gholdengo does not have a cot darn thing to do with it.
Tera is a huge part of it but you can't look at this meta and realistically say it's balanced with just Tera gone. Tera isn't being acted on at the moment so might as well aim for the next biggest thing imbalancing the tier.....and it's not [ban random sweeper or hazard setter].

another way to think of this: our other grounds are fine vs gholdengo and historically have been. Suddenly we have a hazard setter that beats the grounds, and GHOLD is the problem?
Ghold and lack or reliable removal as a result of it was always an imbalance problem. It just wasn't as clear because the Pokemon itself is not broken statistically, people have new toy syndrome and tera exists. Way more than enough to get distracted with.

"Mandibuzz and Tusk don't want to take a Toxic from Gliscor, Treads and Gweez don't want to take an EQ. "

"Why is buffing one otherwise extremely passive Pokémon by banning a relatively unrelated Pokémon the solution? Really comes off as cope & insane troll logic to me"
This is troll logic if that's all you got out of the post or how you think to play with these mons around Gliscor.
 
As our generation's greatest antisemite once said: "I wanna go to the moon / Don't leave so soon / How could I get through?"

I'd like to announce I'll be once again trying and failing to get reqs to help in the campaign for BM Luna to beat the ban allegations

In all seriousness, does any ghost type get Mold Breaker? And does Mold Breaker stop Mind's Eye? geniunely asking
 
As our generation's greatest antisemite once said: "I wanna go to the moon / Don't leave so soon / How could I get through?"

I'd like to announce I'll be once again trying and failing to get reqs to help in the campaign for BM Luna to beat the ban allegations

In all seriousness, does any ghost type get Mold Breaker? And does Mold Breaker stop Mind's Eye? geniunely asking
I was about to post about our forgotten Orthworm but I realized it gets completelty destroy regardless of the STAB resistance/immunity. Has anybody tried Frosmoth as a potential counter?
 
Anyway here all all the resists to Bloodmoon Ursaluna's Stab Combo (Accounting For Mind's Eye) in the game.
:Corviknight:: The Only OU ranked resist; Pretty good although it needs to be careful around Roosting into Earth Power so not very consistent
:Orthworm:: A meme
:Bronzong:: Passive

Other than that there are copium answers like Balloon :Gholdengo: and Flying types like :Gliscor: using protect or substitute to bait the Blood Moon attack.
And then CM :Blissey:? Maybe Tera :Clodsire: and :Skeledirge: may not be bad answers.
This thing doesn't really have any good answers, although it is pretty slow so maybe it's balanced? (Note trying to kill this thing from full is a nightmare, especially with Tera)
 
if we couldn't band together and kick out something as nakedly broken as kingambit
gambit is nowhere comparable to the current situation of spikes

spikes is the most likely option to succeed because it only requires one suspect test instead of three or more
suspects should be handled properly, not in the quickest way possible . ianlazerbeem already explained perfectly what a huge portion of players feel and u should thank him for how he explained

if only hamurott get banned, suddently spikers are 100% stopped by magic bounce
if only hamurott get banned, being able to taunt a spiker require a lot less speed: at that point, gliscor is forced to run speed and lose bulkyness
if only dengo get banned, mandi & corv become viable and spin is a lot easier
if gliscor get banned other spikers does not have a way to recover health (ting has rest but sucks)

and so on, removing a single option makes the remaining a lot easier to counter or adapt.

also about hamurott: he does not only has spikes but probably the best movepool ever for both utility (encore, taunt) and in offensive terms, sharpness is a free choice band lmao

252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 118-139 (30.8 - 36.2%) -- 55.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 118-141 (30.8 - 36.8%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO

ceaseless edge on another pokemon with a worst movepool was probably going to be ok, same for dengo and all the giant movepool, ability and good typing he has

ting lu does not have this, is slower and can't really use taunt, no recovery outside rest, for me would be perfectly fine since he also checks dengo and gambit
 
252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 118-139 (30.8 - 36.2%) -- 55.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 118-141 (30.8 - 36.8%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO
…huh. that's actually really weird that the calcs are slightly different. sharpness is a 1.5x boost to move power and band is a 1.5x boost to attack, and according to the damage calculation formula, multiplying either variable by 1.5 should produce the same results. those two calcs should be exactly the same
correct, gambit is far worse
do you mean "worse" as in "less strong" or "worse" as in "a bigger problem"? this sentence as it's written could mean one of two completely opposite things
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
…huh. that's actually really weird that the calcs are slightly different. sharpness is a 1.5x boost to move power and band is a 1.5x boost to attack, and according to the damage calculation formula, multiplying either variable by 1.5 should produce the same results. those two calcs should be exactly the same

do you mean "worse" as in "less strong" or "worse" as in "a bigger problem"? this sentence as it's written could mean one of two completely opposite things
assuming a max roll for both,
(((((2×100÷5)+2)×(65×1.5)×(346÷273))÷50)+2)×1.5=158.7 for Sharpness, which as you said is a 1.5x boost to move power
and
(((((2×100÷5)+2)×(65)×((346×1.5)÷273))÷50)+2)×1.5=158.7 for Choice Band, which is a 1.5x boost to the attack stat.
Why they aren't the same on smogon's calculator, I have no idea.

wish bulbapedia's damage formula image was an actual image i could paste here and edit.
 
assuming a max roll for both,
(((((2×100÷5)+2)×(65×1.5)×(346÷273))÷50)+2)×1.5=158.7 for Sharpness, which as you said is a 1.5x boost to move power
and
(((((2×100÷5)+2)×(65)×((346×1.5)÷273))÷50)+2)×1.5=158.7 for Choice Band, which is a 1.5x boost to the attack stat.
Why they aren't the same on smogon's calculator, I have no idea.

wish bulbapedia's damage formula image was an actual image i could paste here and edit.
That isn’t the calc that was initially posted, Samurott’s attack stat is 315 without modifiers and Abomasnow’s defense stat is 279 after snow
I can’t test if this makes a difference right now but try with these numbers instead and see if the result is different
 
…huh. that's actually really weird that the calcs are slightly different. sharpness is a 1.5x boost to move power and band is a 1.5x boost to attack, and according to the damage calculation formula, multiplying either variable by 1.5 should produce the same results. those two calcs should be exactly the same
One thing you didn't realize is that Pokemon rounds down calculations at every stage in the calculation so 65*1.5 is rounded down to 97 rather than 97.5. It absolutely matters where in the calculation stage that modifiers are applied because of that. The Showdown Calculator is accurate in this case.
 
As our generation's greatest antisemite once said: "I wanna go to the moon / Don't leave so soon / How could I get through?"

I'd like to announce I'll be once again trying and failing to get reqs to help in the campaign for BM Luna to beat the ban allegations

In all seriousness, does any ghost type get Mold Breaker? And does Mold Breaker stop Mind's Eye? geniunely asking
Save my bear!!!!! There are higher problems!!!
 
correct, gambit is far worse
U can be prepared for gambit (dozo tusk zama, random fast wow, encore on sucker punch or sd etc), he really can't do so much damage early game and he can't live forever, BEFORE home these was supposed to be some checks & counters for tera dark & fire and both lkick and ihead

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...erpon-wellspring.3713007/page-14#post-9634957

If u are prepared to gambit and still lose probably is because your opponent played mid and lategame better. I know there are replays of teams with lando-t, zama and somethiing more still destroyed by gambit but how much time can happen? maybe 1 time every 10/20 matches

Spikes is the opposite, u have tusk for spin, court change can work one time if u don't have a backup spinner or defogger and nothing more; this is what appear when i teambuild and i need a pokemon able to hazard control




There was more viable answers (not dead slots) to gambit before home than hazard control pokomen now, i am not saying is normal invest 2 slots for ""countering"" gambit but at least u can do it if u want.
 
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